"Present our position are interests of Republic Moldova". Interview of the President of Republic Moldova of Vladimir Voronin to television channel "Moldova 1" on November, 26th, 2003 (shorthand report).
- Last week there was a sensation, that just about - the account, probably, went on hours, and can, and for minutes - official Kishinev, in the presence of the shuttle diplomat of the Kremlin Dmitry Kozaka, probably, with arrival of mister Igor Smirnova, probably, with arrival башкана Гагаузии, will sign the Memorandum of main principles of a state system of the incorporated state. What has occurred in the night from Monday to Tuesday?
- Readout should be conducted not from this last night. It is necessary to take a reference point much earlier, from the conflict, history of its occurrence and the followed numerous attempts it to solve. You know, that the innumerable quantity of projects has been developed, and all of them came to an end with anything. We have really been convinced and assured, that though this time the given project can have prospect. This conviction was not simply, know, "here so we have decided to believe". It was under construction on a serious basis. The offer which has sounded in Kiev last year concerning settlement of a Dnestr question by a method of formation of federation was this basis, or the newest reference point. Then, you know, discussions on this theme have gone. And we participated in this discussion, political forces and other parties participated in discussion. And, finally, in February of this year, I have initiated that for the definitive decision of a Dnestr question expediently - together with Dnestr region, together with Гагаузией - to develop the project of the new constitution and to leave with the new constitution on a national referendum. Then we have started to work intensively concerning Memorandum working out to the constitution. After this my initiative, with the schedule of the schedule and terms of realisation of the constitutional process, the joint constitutional commission of Parliament of Republic Moldova and the so-called Supreme body of Dnestr region has been formed. This commission gathered innumerable quantity of times, but practically from a place they could not move. Also could not for the objective reasons. The most important reason was that they did not have a political order if want: what constitution of the state, or is more concrete, that I have been understood by all citizens of the country - it is necessary to write what constitution? What should contain in this constitution what should be structure of this state, system of controls, system of federal institutes and so on?
- "Order" was expected from whom - the authorities, personally president Voronina?
Are we should make, the centre, Kishinev, together with Tiraspol and together with Комратом. We should tell, what we see the future constitution of Republic Moldova. Then there was an idea of this Memorandum. This name - "memorandum", in diplomacy is "notes", "memorandums" and so on, and as a matter of fact this differentiation of powers between the centre and subjects of federation. It is the basic sense of the Memorandum discussed by us. That is in the summer we have started to work over the document on differentiation of powers. Originally we worked, here, in Kishinev. And have then come to conclusion, that someone who can unite these three parties to which we can consult is all the same necessary with which we can conduct the work directed on that these offered differentiations have been accepted by all parties. OSCE mission has been informed on it, the countries-guarantors have been informed on it, and we have started to work. The Russian Federation on Dnestr region has well-known, what influence. It to exclude it is impossible, from it to leave too meanwhile it is impossible.
Is has affected a choice of the Kremlin, that is Russia in a moderator role?
Is there was a main choice - the representative of the Russian Federation should carry out a role "the shuttle diplomat". That is with this project which somewhere for 70 percent has been developed by us to go to Tiraspol, then to come to Kishinev and to convince the parties that "it that is necessary". So there was a project of this Memorandum. In it all principles of a state system providing association because we have converged that for us unifying process, or реинтеграция the countries, is not simply vital have been put in pawn is the future our Native land - Republics Moldova. And when we speak about the European integration when we speak about life improvement in our country, we understand, that we will achieve it, if we will unite the country.
- And nevertheless - it is so much efforts, efforts, probably, the sleepless nights, the spent nerves. Without it, of course, in the politician it is impossible, as well as in a usual life. And still: what has forced personally you how the President of Republic Moldova, not to finish the Memorandum? What actually has occurred here, in your office, maybe, in your device, in the night from Monday to Tuesday?
- Process of work on this document has been stipulated by the certain conditions certain by principles: as as should contain in this Memorandum. And at the beginning, till this last week, all these conditions, all these principles were observed by all parties, all participants of working out of the Memorandum. The first principle has been sounded by me (the first, can, not on importance degree, and chronologically): АТО Гагауз Ери should is indispensable to become the subject of federation. When there was a conversation on the scheme, the signing mechanism the management of Dnestr region categorically was against башкан Гагаузии has signed the Memorandum. Further. We обговаривали very seriously question that, of course, all of us understand that if we go on the status of the country neutral and demilitarised it does not become for the second day after constitution acceptance, after elections. There there are people, they serve, it is their trade, it is their earnings eventually, and the certain period and process specific is required to achieve the decision of a question on demilitarisation. It demands time. For this time, all of us it is perfectly understood, between the armed people with one and on the other hand should, in order to avoid any troubles, to stand other forces which will not allow that there there were conflicts. We have declared at once, that because all of us - Republic Moldova, Ukraine, the Russian Federation - we are members of the European organisation under OSCE name, in it by all means should participate OSCE and all should occur under OSCE mandate. About what I spoke last week at a meeting with ambassadors, followed from this co-ordinated position which we should register in the Memorandum text. However there was statement Смирнова for 30 years, about perfect other format of maintenance of process of demilitarisation. It was the second motive. Then, at the last minute, there was a number such, I would tell, at first sight, "editorial amendments". But they not the editorial. They especially political and with very, so to say, muffled prospect. For example, since conflict time, since 1992, in all documents which as a result of negotiations were made and subscribed a management of Republic Moldova and administration of Dnestr region, this our territory was called "Dnestr region". In one document it has not been specified, registered, that it "Dnestr Moldavian Republic". And suddenly in the memorandum there is everywhere "a Dnestr Moldavian Republic". I have asked myself a question, and I ask a question to those who listens to me in what it could result if such edition remained and if further, except acceptance of this memorandum, we anywhere do not send? And after all this beginning only of process, I have already told, that the Memorandum is a political toolkit for a writing of the new constitution, but it not settlement end.
- Here I will interrupt, but I will make it meaningly. I understand, that at politicians, at diplomats, at переговорщиков the scenarios, "courses". In what, as a matter of fact, a basic difference between a word "Dnestr region" and an abbreviation "ПМР? I am assured, that many of those several hundreds thousand spectators which look today this interview, puzzle: it is a basic difference? Only the formulation varies in the Memorandum, in the future constitution. In what a difference?
- The memorandum - the political order for the new constitution. It is necessary to write the constitution further. It is necessary to hold a referendum further. It is necessary to hold an election in joint Parliament further. But it is all further. And if we do not go further the Memorandum that appears? For the first time in the text of the Memorandum signed by the official, the President of Republic Moldova, there is a state name - "Dnestr Moldavian Republic". If, God forbid, it has occurred, if all stops on Memorandum signing, and in it there is article according to which Dnestr region is the state formation that stirs to Dnestr region what prevents to recognise to other countries Dnestr region as the separate independent state? Nothing stirs. And such ostensibly "editorial features" was much in the text. All it forced the way in the accelerated mode, is "urgent, urgent" - who spoke "under Maastricht", someone denied, that it becomes "for Maastricht", but actually it contained. And our remarks, our requirements to withdraw it from the Memorandum text met fierce resistance and categorical unwillingness it to do. If this purely editorial, in what business? Russian is how much great and mighty, unless we cannot find other words to replace this all? We can. However did not want.
- And when you have felt, what to you impose certain game rules and the scenario?
- And it was felt constantly. It constantly went, but as all of us understand, on that it and negotiating process that each party aspired to achieve as it is possible большего at the question decision. The big powers, the big rights, also it is all clearly. But there are moments when you make a compromise and when on them it is necessary to go because unifying process without the compromise is impossible who and whatever wished to prove. But there is a compromise price. There is a price of concessions. Also there is a limit further which it is simply impossible to go. First, because there is no sense "a kitchen garden to fence" - what for? And the second - because in the long term it can strike with such force that will be not clear, that we have piled, that we for the state create.
- You know, I in a city have heard yesterday two points of view, from people absolutely far from a policy - any relation neither to parliament, nor to the power, to opposition; working people. Here the first point of view: Воронин it has appeared the present muzhik because had boldness for the first time to tell "is not present" to the Kremlin, either Moscow, or the messenger of president Putin, not important. And the second point of view: to president Voroninu have suggested to play a casino with very big risk, and the president, not being the fan of a casino, has refused to do it. A little, maybe, not absolutely successful formulation, hardly it is possible to estimate the country, the people, the nation in any counters with which can be played, manipulated. Here what point of view is closest to you?
- The present point of view, present our position are interests of Republic Moldova and its people. And if something is not subordinated to these interests if contradicts interests of the people, we on it will not go. On any concessions under whose pressure and under whatever pressing of it it was carried out. And we it have proved time and again for these years stay at the power: that there are interests of the country, and these are the most important conditions which we are obliged to observe and which we observe in our activity. Therefore any concessions, any compromises, I repeat, are possible, but on questions of principle - was not present. Also there was one more reason, except two stated above. We should accompany all process of working out of this Memorandum by active diplomatic activity with inclusion of the European institutes - OSCE, EU, NATO, Eurocommission and other European structures. Unfortunately, all of us, participants of negotiating process, the countries-guarantors, it did not become. And when we all the same have started to ask a position of these organisations, it has appeared far from expected. In a situation when we have unequivocally declared not so long ago the European vector of development of our country, about a course on the European integration, and on the decision of a Dnestr question we leave "behind the back" Europe is it would be absolutely not clear for the European institutes. Also it is, of course, unpromising for us. Including for the decision of a Dnestr question before its logic end.
- That for history was yesterday since morning as the information proceeded from the press-service of the president of Russia, about forthcoming visit of president Putin to Kishinev. Have notified, and history continuation was not.
- Possibility of was discussed that if the parties will reach desirable compromises, will reach that text of the Memorandum to which we aspired if on it there will be a support of the European organisations, to sign this document during Vladimir Putin's official visit to Republic Moldova which was planned for a long time. But to "adjust" it to visit, or on the contrary, we have counted inexpedient. Therefore conversation on visit has simply hung in mid-air. Actually I had a telephone conversation with Vladimir Vladimirovichem, I to it have told, what we have faced, what here problems under the Memorandum, and, of course, the president of Russia has offered: let's not to hurry up in that case, let's not to hasten, and if there are problems, let's them discuss more deeply and in more details.
- From your permission, I wish to return to a question on the Memorandum, not to all its articles, of course, let politicians, opposition, civil servants, diplomats are engaged in it. But there is a point which I can discuss with you. It concerns concepts "федерализации". And the power has declared very accurately a vector to Europe, and the opposition wants for a long time to Europe. But if to recollect political history of Europe both East, and Western - there are many countries where федерализация there are some decades, and there were no crises, any desire to change a political system. I cannot understand, why at many people in republic, this question causes fear why causes so much aversion a word "федерализация", maybe, it because of ignorance of this term in opposition?
- Actually from classical positions федерализация is only distribution of powers in the state. That is what powers remain behind the centre and what powers are given to conducting subjects of federation. The federation does not mean division of the country, introduction of any cordons, frontier guards, additional customs etc. It does not happen anywhere, after all we have models of these federations in the same USA, Germany, Switzerland. At us it is all it hypertrophies and deformed, and each time with definite purposes. I have told in the yesterday's statement, in what the reason нерешенности a Dnestr question till now. That at all of us at this decision the maximum dividends wish to receive. And external forces, but also internal do not doze - as though not to stand aside at the decision of a Dnestr question. And if it is turned out and turns over, just and such situations which we had turn out here.
- Work on the Memorandum as I understand, will proceed. Perhaps about New year, can, after New year - not in it an essence. And on what the parties have stopped? Probably, all these months, weeks, hours behind a negotiating table have not passed for nothing?
- Today in Tiraspol the next meeting in a five-sided format has taken place. There is an arrangement that the same meeting will be spent tomorrow in Kishinev. And in general, by and large, work on the given project of the Memorandum has very strongly pull together our parties. On many questions. And, of course, it thanks to intermediaries, thanks to the Russian Federation and thanking personally to Kozaku Dmitry Nikolaevichu. For this period of time some questions which were in the public eye at all are removed - so-called telephone war is stopped, the Dnestr party has accepted the offer on removal of restriction on visiting of Dnestr region by a republic management. We, in turn, have proposed before the European organisations removal of restrictions on visiting of Europe by a management of Dnestr region. We have started to carry on now normally negotiations on a question of a recognition of documents which stand out in Dnestr region studying youth that they could arrive in republic high schools. Intensity in maintenance with gas and the electric power of left-bank villages which are in submission of Kishinev is removed. That is positive it is much reached. For the one and only week. If there is a desire, it is possible to make much. But the most important thing - in political aspect at last Dnestr region recognised a principle of asymmetric federation. That is from that равносубъектности about which all of them these years spoke, they have refused and have passed to a principle of the subject of federation.
- Vladimir Nikolaevich if restrictions when mum visit are removed?
- And I have already visited.
- This week?
- No, restrictions have been on Friday evening removed, and on Saturday I already was at 9 o'clock at mum.
- How she has apprehended it?
- And how she could apprehend? After such quantity of time, after all we with March, 8th did not see:
- Vladimir Nikolaevich, forgive, there can be a question will seem a little provocative, but, I think, the president should answer it, it is very important. You know, to me scenarios which have been used from official Kishinev last 10 days, since last Monday were clear. The statement of the president, the legislative initiative for amnesties of the persons who were taking part in the Dnestr conflict, the end to war in sphere of high technologies, that is "telephone war"... But you know, intuitively it seems to me, probably, I am mistaken, sharp increase of the prices for bread, despite yours still pre-election pledges not to concern this theme because old men on bread and live and on water, can, occasionally them suffices on milk: And such here original pressure: give, sign the Memorandum. Tell, and it reminds nothing to you a certain smart combination which used in Tbilisi in the end of last week?
- Such poor harvest on grain at us in Moldova was not since 1946. We kept the prices stable since have come to power in April, 2001 But look really. "Францелуца" in which the state has only 56 percent, sustains monthly enormous losses. Besides, the prices for wheat for a foreign market because it has occurred not only at us, but also in Europe as a whole, in Ukraine were sharply raised. We cannot keep the former prices any more. But the moment when there was a rise in price is has occurred for some reason on Saturday:
- Yes, I remember, on Saturday...
- Moreover, I so also have not received till now the answer: who co-ordinated this increase of the prices?
- And whom you have asked? At the government or at "Франзелуцы"?
- Has asked whom it is necessary. Same does not become so. As in all cases bread is a policy. And here there is and at us a question. How it is synchronised? And bread, and then and all these wars: at first against Memorandum signing, and now stand here, in the street, it is not known for what - will already ask to sign the Memorandum? As it is all unites - over it we should reflect really.
- Well, and what your answer to the following question. I understand, that if president Voronin would sign the Memorandum on Tuesday morning, for example, and till the evening still president Putin would arrive, the opposition for example could tell, that president Voronin the traitor of the nation. But if president Voronin has not signed the Memorandum then for what they fight, for what they are at war, they offer what idea, because the area is filled, as far as I know, two or three thousand people? It causes enough the big discomfort in a city. What does the opposition today ask from you as at the head of the state, either at party in power, or at the power as a whole?
- The most interesting, that asks nothing! They before prospective arrival of the President of the Russian Federation have created any committee which, I so have understood, have been appointed not to admit Memorandum signing. But signing of the Memorandum and without them has not taken place. Because we above, than they, understand and we estimate interests of the country. They, by the way, showed all these years, what do they think of interests of our country.
- You know, politicians cynical people say, that, and in the politician there is no word "morals". I understand everything if against Воронина there would be a heap of huge muzhiks and ladies, and would shout: "Down with president Voronina!", "Down with the president of the-communist". But tell, it in general is moral, it - is normal, that certain political forces used children in achievement of the political ambitions and the purposes. And me reaction of their parents, to tell the truth, is not clear. Besides Vladimir Voronin is the president, Vladimir Voronin is also the grandfather. Here to you it would be personally pleasant, that someone used your grand daughter for achievement of the political ends, moreover and not bad on it would earn, and the child мерз on a platform between president residence and parliament in an environment of policemen?
- Certainly, about these schoolboys who on the area stand, we can tell, that it if only not to study if only on lesson not to sit. And what to speak about students, especially about what on the contract? And what to speak about students, which on the budget? Why we, our country from this the poor budget allocate, today, these remains, these tears, first of all on social needs and we finance high schools that children not only on the contract there studied, but also grants that were. We allocate this money, and they instead of studying, stand on the area. They on the area to anything decent will not learn. The competent, professionally prepared experts who will develop the country which will represent it in Europe, instead of on the area, shouts are necessary to the country.
- And whether there is at you a confidence, what in our law enforcement bodies, in particular the Ministry of Internal Affairs which is responsible for the law and order in Kishinev and in the country, has not arisen something which in a press has received the name of "the Tbilisi syndrome" - to accept, упаси the Lord, any strict measures that in Kishinev we had infringement of democracy that delegations did not fly to Strasbourg for consultations of the Council of Europe and so on?
- Well, I will not open now forms and methods of activity of our bodies and those problems which they solve. But it is visible, that they have also a resoluteness, there is also a spirit on that lawful, I repeat, lawful methods to put an end to all this orgy. There is this spirit, and at whom it is not present, will help to find it.
- As far as I know, and mister Roshka with the associates, and mister Bragish with the associates, and other leaders of opposition намерены on November, 30th, that is forthcoming Sunday to gather for the areas of Great National meeting. What slogans there will be, I do not know, and you, probably, do not know. But nevertheless, besides we come back to the begun discussion if president Voronin has not signed the Memorandum what slogans can be? Here I now feel accent change. After all instead of that was yesterday - "Down with the Memorandum!", today shout "Down with communists!". What do you expect as the president of the country, how the president selected the people of this state? On what it is necessary to pay attention and that should be expected from opposition next Sunday?
- They, if do not see occasions, have no situations which would justify such behaviour, they invent them. They invent any situations. They consider it as a struggle component for souls, for minds of people, for voters. Consider, that they have begun already election campaign and prepare for the next parliamentary elections. If it occurs such methods, if today two thirds of parliament "red" to following elections can be more "reddenings". Because people have simply got tired both of shouts, and from these methods not absolutely democratic though they and wave the European flags. People have simply got tired. I here analyzed not so long ago statistical collections of 1990 I looked, how Latvia, Lithuania and Moldova developed Estonia. On very many indicators МССР of 1990 was up to standard higher, than these countries. And where today we? They, these three Baltic countries - in EU, and we are recognised - and many almost are not proud of this recognition - the poorest country in Europe. Why? Because all 10 years were these slogans, 10 years were these shouts, 10 years there was this hysterics. We stop three years this hysterics, these shouts. But from these three, and is more true, two and a half years, they to us practically normally to work year did not give. All time of a stick in wheels: either there will be a default, or there will be a crisis, or there will be no growth, or the bank such will be closed. That is all time frighten the people. Unless it is possible on it деструктивизме, on such relation to people, to youth, to students which they in such weather hold here half-starved and semiundressed. Unless it is possible for itself to win on it to itself the political capital? That they do it is immoral, it even criminally.
- Vladimir Nikolaevich, remains some minutes till the end of transfer. There are two opinions on how president Voronin will arrive, on what will count in the decision of questions with the same Memorandum, with the further development of Moldova. The first: an administrative resource, power of the government, the parliamentary majority, personal power reserves, probably, and party money. And there is also another: why to president Voroninu not to act on the air and to tell: the dear people, the dear nation, have come the moment when I, the president, I wish to ask your support because problems which Moldova faces, is not Vladimir Voronina's personal problems, these are country problems as a whole and the Moldavian people as a whole. I ask from you at least encouragement. You could act with such reference to the nation?
- Well, first about the Memorandum and as a whole about negotiating process. We categorically against that was possible to reach last week, has gone to waste, that is we will ask all countries-guarantors, all European organisations that this work proceeded. Proceeded in a normal, quiet rhythm. Certainly, not being tightened again for a decade. We were very close to decision achievement, if not all these "turns" about which we spoke. As to the reference to the nation. Yes, in an arsenal of the president there is such form. I did not use it, and hardly to it I will resort. I explain why. We have received the absolute credit of trust in 2001. It is not realised by us, it is not used by us up to the end. And that public opinion which is today in the country, not only does not speak about decrease in this credit - it says even about increase of this level of trust to us, to our party, to me as to the president, thanks to that we had time to make for these years. Certainly, at a good situation, at the big possibilities, at the best раскладе, including financial, all would be better. After all today they do not leave, do not ask: Брагиш who such? It after all was the prime minister. 5 days prior to last parliamentary elections, on February, 20th, the World bank has listed to us of 20 million dollars. 5 days prior to elections! Where this money has left? And on what?
- On what this money has left?
- Let Брагиш will tell - here the people cost in the street and wait, that he has answered. Only this year from the budget of 31 percent leaves on calculations on external debts. In the form of payment under those credits, on those debts that has been saved up. That people have understood, how many we pay, that means this of 31 percent which we tear off from ourselves, from the people, from beggars, from orphans, from patients, from poor, from pensioners, I will notice, that only 0,7 % from the state budget 0,22 % - on sports development are allocated for culture, and. Here to what they have finished the country. Here these Брагиш and Рошка, and those committees, that they create, should explain. Let for it they покаются and let will tell it, instead of that we do. We - do. They never could constrain the price for bread. They never could achieve such social results - on pensions, salaries etc. They paid pension - our voters - boots, soap let will recollect, than want. And who in the country hears today about such shameful phenomena, how barter, clearings which were the latent form of larceny, corruption and a mafia? Nobody hears, because they are liquidated. Excuse, I can continue this theme. And it is main "theme" of their protests: they do not want the power, they do not know that with it to do. They want a power feeding trough. It is necessary to them only for a feeding trough instead of in order that they are able to supervise over the country. They were not able, are not able and will not learn. They do not wish to study, they wish to sit down simply at a feeding trough and to do nothing.
- Thanks. I wish you strength of mind to finish all about what you spoke. And courage that all it to carry out.